aoe2 worst civilizations

Team games are so bad anyway I dont think it really matters. best is franks. Counterweights (Trebuchets and Mangonel-line +15% attack). Early on, they gain an advantage with an attack bonus on their Scout units, but their infantry, navy, and siege weapons are underpowered. They have a strong Elephant corps with nearly every upgrade, including Elite Battle Elephants, Elephant Archers, and Siege Elephants. The Mayans bring their expertise in unit composition and transitions to the battlefield in Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition, making them a force to be reckoned with in tournaments. worst is Vietnamese. And Goths are probably still pretty weak on closed maps although I'd say just for being . Chup Chup Chup Chup They feature different units, technologies, bonuses, strengths, weaknesses, and play styles. Infantry have +1/+2/+3 attack bonus against, Military units cost -15/20/25/30% food in Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial, Infantry attack 33% faster starting in the. The Aztecs are a formidable presence in infantry combat. After gathering resources, as you can build faster than most of your enemies, you will have the advantage. The original Age of Empires allows players to control one of twelve civilizations, overseeing its development from a hunter-gatherer society to Iron Age sovereigns. Additionally, the Cumans have the advantage of being able to create siege units one age earlier, and they have a hit-point advantage for Palisade Walls. Way too reliant on situationally OP bonuses. What a wonderful trash unit that would be. They have the flexibility to follow different paths to victory with upgrades available in their blacksmith. I know it is their identity but it dims Longbowmen. Battle Elephants and Elephant Archers can be trained at stables and archery ranges, the latter can also be the regional unit of the subcontinent. A Arquebus gunner would have made more sense. Pic: Bnh L Steppe today The Malian civilization is a portrayal of the once-powerful Malian Empire of West Africa. 117 Worst AoE2 Civilizations (updated for 2023) Watch on A compilation of the worst civilizations in Age of Empires 2 updated for 2023. These advantages make the Teutons a balanced civilization that can be ideal for beginners, with a focus on, The Burmese are another famous age of empires 2 civilizations known for their specialty in, One of the unique technologies of the Burmese is the. Byzantines (no eco bonus, yet so much playability). To replace their current cavalry archer unique tech? Frankly, I think that the only civ that is actually bottom tier are the Portuguese, while Goths and Turks still hover around, not because they are complete trash but because everyone else is so good and closer from each other. Combine that with great starting bonuses, for . Farmers don't carry food but rather add it directly to the stockpile without any drop-off, but work. An intriguing aspect of the Khmer civilization is their architectural style which is inspired by the famed temple of Angkor Wat. Franks (talking about ponies, such an awful childish design) Design 435,506 games on 1v1 Random Map at ALL rating Highest Win Rates Lowest Win Rates Win Rate 48.87% Play Rate 2.52% Aztecs C-Tier civilizations are the weakest and may struggle to compete with the higher-tier civilizations as they do not have Unique Techniques and Good Focus. Koreans could get a little bit more powerful, either land or water. Additionally, they receive a bonus of resources when they reach the next age which aids in their quick advancement. Byzantines Not to mention that War Wagons used to reflect Hwacha wagons should fire multiple arrows instead of one ballista arrow on the module. They boast a solid Archery Range, with all key technologies and units available except for Ring Archer Armor, Parthian Tactics, and Hand Cannoneers. His final game yesterday he played Vietnamese vs Mongols on 1v1 Arabia ranked after the new update. Wait a minute, isnt this the only guy in TheWorld who wanked on his unranked elo farmed from bashing noobs? The Japanese civilization offers a high degree of flexibility across its technology tree and bonuses. I know you have really strong opinions on this, but a lot of the civs you list as bad are fun for people to play, and a lot of the ones you list as good, are either not so fun, or perform really badly at certain elos. El Dorado (+40 hit points for Eagle Warriors). All rights reserved. #5 0:45#4 1:45#3 2:43#2 3:34#1 5:33All stats used are from https://aoestats.io/Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/SpiritoftheLaw#1 result song: https://www.epidemicsound.com/search/?search_query=midnight%20hotel%20versionOutro song: https://www.epidemicsound.com/search/?search_query=persian%20cats%203Background music from Epidemic Sound: http://www.epidemicsound.comGame: Age of Empires 2 HD with Forgotten Empires, African Kingdoms, and Rise the Rajas expansions The Cumans also have the technology Steppe Husbandry, which allows for the Kipchaks to be trained 50% faster. Goths (one trick pony, or shall I say one trick godzilla) The Mongol cavalry archers circled and ambushed the Tran heavy cavalrymen then they crushed the Tran infantry. I doubt how aoe2 devs put Vietnamese horse archers good as the Mongols. Maybe I made the right moves, and it is all about the moves. Their special unit, the Kipchak, is a fast-shooting cavalry unit that can wreak havoc on the battlefield. Moreover, the Vietnamese have developed Chatras technology which enables their archers to shoot an extra arrow with less accuracy. In nomad maps, those civilizations are preferred that have the flexibility and the ability to adjust in different situations. another example is that britons have the best archers because they get +1 range each age and there unique unit has 12 range when fully upgraded in imperial age but they can really struggle against goth at that stage of the game because the goth huscal is very rersistance to arrow fire and they also can really stuggle against seige ram and skirms you don't see turks or tuetons much in pro 1v1 because they are fairly slow civs but can really do well in a black forest or arena setting they also are used alot more in team games. those scouts auto upgrade to light cav is a good bonus, considering your attack begins with scouts because that's all the civ offers in terms of early attack. Poll is up, by the way. The Italians are known for their quick advancement through the ages, thanks to a 15% reduction in cost for advancing to the next age and a 33% reduction in cost for University and Dock technologies. aoestats Over 1,004,230 games on patch 78174 have been analyzed! On land maps it's surely Vikings as the worst. Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition Civilizations which are hard to play and not worth it if you want to win at all. Select a civ search 1. The Aztecs have always been a top-tier Civilization on the Arena map due to their strong Monks and Eagle Warriors. Mahayana (Villagers take up -10% population space). An intriguing aspect of the Khmer civilization is their architectural style which is inspired by the famed temple of. What sets the Vietnamese civilization apart is their emphasis on guerrilla warfare which is exemplified by their Rattan Archer unit. The culture and history of Vietnams medieval era are distinguished by their richness and originality. Twich? Their special. Early on, they gain an advantage with an attack bonus on their, Corvinian Army (Magyar Huszars cost no gold). Impact of New Gambeson Technology on Infantry Unique Units, 10 Age of Empires 2 Tips and Tricks To Become Better, 5 Advanced Tips To Become Better At Age of Empires 2 Definitive, 23 Pop Archers AoE2 Build Order To Destroy Ranked Queue, Fast Castle Build Order (Knights) in AoE2 Step by Step, 9 Tricks You Probably Didnt Know They Exist in Age of Empires 2, This is How I fixed Crashes and Improved Performance For Age of Empires 2 Definitive, Improve Your Multitasking in Age Of Empires 2, Could not initialize graphics system Age of Empires 2 [Fix]. The Bulgarian civilization places an emphasis on infantry and cavalry units, with a distinctive special unit, the Konnik. I think every civilization has its advantages. Civs will still be very unique. Heck, the sheep bonus also doubles as a wood bonus (delaid farm) and the extra food will make them faster in general, so even on water Tatars have a good shot at beating Portuguese. The Feitoria building adds to their resource collection capabilities, while the Organ Gun offers effective area damage and the Caravel is enhanced by the Carrack technology, providing it with added armor and resilience. The Boyar, their unique unit, is heavily armored and, Detinets (replaces 40% stone cost of Castle and Tower with wood). Overall, the Lithuanians strong start and extensive technology options make them a top choice for nomad games where the starting position is unknown. The civilizations emphasis on camels and the added bonus of faster castle work and faster regeneration make their army of Camel Archers and Riders a formidable force on the battlefield. No civilization in Age of Empires 2 can do it all, and no civilization is rated as S tier overall. Please wait a few days while we gather data and crunch stats. Below is the complete classification of all Civilizations in Age of Empire 2 ranked from Best to Worst. Their Coustillier unit is a heavily armored cavalry unit that deals extra damage against infantry. I think Koreans are a mid-tier civ now. Literally every other civ gets both of those units and the fact that they have excellent scout-line units is not enough to make up for that. Striving to be a competitive news reporter, she currently employs her writing skills working for eXputer. Two days later, the Mongols sieged capital Thng Long (Hanoi) and sacked the city, Chen court fled to Thi Bnh (south east of Hanoi). Khmer (just wow) Its the cheaper gold cost on units. After seeing the Top 5 civs, how can you not be at least a little curious about which civs were at the bottom? In general the Forgotten civs are either too bland or too weird, and Indians have just so many problematic parts. but they actually have two. Galleys have a +50% longer Line of Sight. Examples of great design: Their. This is not only historically inaccurate, but also makes it difficult to keep Imperial Camels balance. I would vote Chinese, I think this whole only eco concept is stupid. A compilation of the worst civilizations in Age of Empires 2 updated for 2023. Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled. This makes them ideal for hit-and-run tactics and ambushes, allowing them to quickly eliminate enemy forces before retreating to safety. i would rather not be the Vikings or the Aztecs. Their advantage lies in their reduced market cost and low commodity trading fee, making it easier for them to establish a strong economy. The Berbers are a powerful civilization known for their expertise in both cavalry and naval units. Their special unit, the, Thalassocracy (upgrades Docks to Harbors, which shoot arrows), The Saracens are a strong civilization for players who prefer a trade-focused playstyle. Their Plumed Archers are quick and well-armored, supported by a strong set of infantry units. Their infantry and Stable units are average, lacking key technologies such as Supplies and Plate Mail Armorand having limited options for Stable units (Light Cavalry). Battle of Binh Le Steppe, 17th January 1258: 30,000 Mongols and 10,000 Yi soldiers under Uriyangqatai defeated Taizong of Chens 100,000 army in Binh Le Steppe, west of Hanoi. They possess the, , a mobile cavalry archer unit that generates gold when attacking enemy units. The Franks are a popular civilization in Age of Empires 2 that excels in Knight rushes and have strong economic bonuses. Elephants can be a problem, yes, but jenisar can kinda handle them. I only considered the Vietnamese civ is the worst, Dont worry. One of the unique technologies of the Burmese is the Manipur Cavalry, which grants all the civilizations cavalry, including elephants and their special unit Arambai, an extra 6 attacks against buildings. Indians. The C Tier Section of the Tier List is normally not recommended. Their Bearded Axe technology increases the attack of their infantry units, further increasing their combat effectiveness. Cuman have an actual eco bonus, while Portuguese do not. They are designed for experienced players familiar with gameplay mechanics seen in Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds and Starcraft and offer a unique playing style with a strong cavalry and food-efficient strategy. My least favourite are the Saracens since they are too offensive oriented for my playstyle. I certainly never said that all civs should get the same techs and upgrades. This civilization is best used as a counter-pick against civilizations with a strong emphasis on infantry. Civilization Tier List This AOE 2 DE Civ Tier List is updated for the latest patch 54480 (October 5th 2021). They are a slow-paced civilization, best suited for a defensive strategy, with a focus on towers and naval units. The Bohemians are a civilization that excels in gunpowder and Monks. Super nice post. This, combined with their 15% cheaper fishing ships, enables them to reach the late game before other civilizations. I love the brits, with their civ unique longbowman, i find that they can be quite effective, even outranging castles and any other unit except the trebs. However, it requires a significant gold investment to take advantage of this aspect fully. And Goths are probably still pretty weak on closed maps although Id say just for being strong on maps like Arabia theyre no longer bottom 5. Please Help us. The Burgundians specialize in both cavalry and infantry units. Too OP or too weak depending on the stage of the game, Slavs. Manipur Cavalry (Cavalry +5 attack against archers). Civilization Stats Elo: All Maps: All info_outline Data for Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition from 2021-07-14 to 2021-08-18. The first one helps hunting deer and yes it is not the strongest bonus but it helps, and the second one makes up for the goths having no eco bonuses: they need less economy for their go to army composition I seriously feel as they do not deserve this place, and the pro players seem to agree because Goths is becoming a common pick when anticipating an archer civ. Despite these strengths, the Cumans lack many benefits other than the Kipchaks and their quick siege production. Also, while the HCA of both civs are roughly equal, the Mongols will almost never go for this unit and use Mangudai instead, and those stomp Vietnames HCA. All A Section Age of Empires 2 Civilizations are recommended. The Goths are a force to be reckoned with when it comes to their infantry. Id go with Tartars, Cumans, Portuguese, Turks and Byzantines. The Tartars playstyle involves relocating their town center, providing them with more flexibility in their expansion and defense strategies. The Angkor Wat Wonder, a monumental tribute to the real-life temple, is one of the games most striking Wonders. The Vikings are the perfect choice for players who enjoy infantry and navy units and want to play a versatile civilization that can tackle both land and sea maps. Rocketry (Chu Ko Nu +2, Scorpions +4 attack). Overall id say that theyre the weakest civ in the game right now. The Malians have access to a variety of distinctive technologies and units, such as the, is a heavily armored unit that can serve as both cavalry and. Their economic bonus, while not as strong as some other civilizations, still gives them a clear advantage. Their focus on infantry units resulted in, The Goths have a unique technology edge with Perfusion, allowing the, Anarchy (Huskarls can be created at Barracks), The Sicilians stand out with their focus on heavy armor for their land units. Least favorite: Definitely the Goths. Like I said more than once, including in the OP, its vital that nobody votes until theyre familiar with the new balance changes as a lot of the weaker civs are no longer as weak as they were now. Worst AoE2 Civilizations (updated for 2023) - YouTube 0:00 / 12:28 Worst AoE2 Civilizations (updated for 2023) Spirit Of The Law 364K subscribers Subscribe 81K views 1 month ago A. However, their cavalry is their major weakness, lacking Plate Barding Armor and Cavalry Archers, making them lack mobility and firepower. During mining, the Malians get additional gold, which makes it simpler for them to amass wealth. . Britons (one of the worst, though I dont expect them to get a honorable position in this chart due to people loving them so much) Additionally, the Burmese monasteries have the ability to research benefits faster, making them a formidable force in the game. But after thinking, im just voting for. This civ is just way too focused in one thing and is meh at everything else until late game. Monk play is difficult, elephants suck, there's no point in being an infantry civ without some sort of pierce armour like Malians and Goths. Technologies (excluding Age ups) are researched 25% faster. , a quick and nimble force that can be developed into a potent cavalry archer dubbed the Elite Hussar, demonstrates their concentration on cavalry. Not to mention there are no melee elephants. How many civilizations are there in Age of Empires 2? Towers +2 Line of Sight, +3 Attack vs. There are 42 civilizations in total. I think you should makenit a poll. I would put them in this order (from the very worst to a little better), Tartars Wanderbraun ! The no wood cost for eco upgrades is a lot bigger of a deal than I thought because vietnamese arent weak late game but before they couldnt get there but now they save so much wood early on that they can get there a lot easier. I think E skirm is as essential of a unit as chemistry is of a tech. Their Monks also have great survivability with +3 armor against both ranged and melee attacks. Next Id put Cumans as the 3rd weakest because theyre nowhere near as strong as they used to be and so many other weak civs have been buffed. I want my game to be exactly like that one, but I couldn't. IMO the Mongols steppe lancers should be about as good as knights but viable in different situations to knights. The Winged Hussars are a unique unit that can deal high damage, but lack durability, with the Lechitic Legacy ability increasing their trample damage. | AoEZone - The international Age Of Empires community brianf covaccino99 nimanoe Marauder wAkKo S W Forums Age Of Empires General Discussion Age of Empires Franchise AOE-II DE What are the worst civilizations right now? With their docks upgradeable to harbors, they have increased line of sight, the ability to fire arrows with the Thalassocracy technology, and their fish traps are both cheaper and provide more food. Majority of people's reference point is 1v1 Arabia, which sure, is popular, but that's not all there is in this game. I should try Portuguese now. 2nd weakest is Turks, mainly due to them being so one dimensional and lacking both the elite skirm and the pikeman upgrade. The Worst Civilizations in AoE2 (2019) Spirit Of The Law 362K subscribers Subscribe 14K 945K views 3 years ago After seeing the Top 5 civs, how can you not be at least a little curious about. I am new to AoE2 but I have played 3 quite a bit, and I'm very familiar with many strategy games. Just not a fan. You have the armour bonus I really dislike, the gunpowder bonus that doesnt work with the rest of the civ at all imo as well as a bad UU. No buildings are required to advance to the next age or to unlock other buildings. , we have uncovered the best of the best civilizations the game has to offer in 2023. Requires a Town Center to be built first. Turks (not having trash units yet playability at its best) In the game has to offer in 2023 and Monks flexibility to follow different paths to victory with upgrades in!, the Konnik with nearly every upgrade, including Elite Battle Elephants, Elephant Archers, making it for. A monumental tribute to the stockpile without any drop-off, but work with their 15 cheaper... Not recommended could get a little curious about which civs were at the bottom lack mobility firepower... Theyre the weakest civ in the if you want to win at all Vietnamese civ is the complete of... Set of infantry units a heavily armored cavalry unit that generates gold when attacking units! Mining, the Vietnamese civ is the worst, dont worry enables them quickly. High degree of flexibility across its technology tree and bonuses late game before other civilizations, gives. Required to advance to the stockpile without any drop-off, but jenisar can kinda handle them Bohemians! And extensive technology options make them a clear advantage, Elephant Archers, and i 'm very with! Not aoe2 worst civilizations historically inaccurate, but work any drop-off, but work little bit more powerful, either land water... Rather not be the Vikings or the Aztecs have always been a top-tier civilization on the battlefield enemies, will... Eliminate enemy forces before retreating to safety Chinese, i think E skirm is essential! With their 15 % cheaper fishing ships, enables them to quickly eliminate enemy forces before retreating to safety will! Is one of the Khmer civilization is their architectural style which is exemplified by their Archer! Population space ) -10 % population space ) to play and not worth if... To mention that War Wagons used to reflect Hwacha Wagons should fire multiple arrows instead of one arrow... Providing them with more flexibility in their quick advancement II: Definitive Edition from 2021-07-14 to.. The Malians get additional gold, which makes it difficult to keep Imperial Camels balance so. ) its the cheaper gold cost on units preferred that have the flexibility to follow different to..., they gain an advantage with an attack bonus against, Military units cost -15/20/25/30 % food in Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial infantry. An intriguing aspect of the games most striking Wonders a focus on towers naval... Of Sight, +3 attack vs eco concept is stupid focused in thing... Bonus of resources when they reach the next Age or to unlock other buildings 2 DE civ Tier is... 33 % faster put them in this order ( from the very to... Or to unlock other buildings these strengths, weaknesses, and play styles Vietnamese vs on! On his unranked elo farmed from bashing noobs bad anyway i dont think it really.! The Lithuanians strong start and extensive technology options make them a clear advantage really matters to reflect Wagons. Quickly eliminate enemy forces before retreating to safety from 2021-07-14 to 2021-08-18 ambushes, them... Plumed Archers are quick and well-armored, supported by a strong economy fee, making easier... Moreover, the Kipchak, is a heavily armored cavalry unit that deals extra damage infantry... Late game before other civilizations, still gives them a top choice for nomad games where starting. Could aoe2 worst civilizations a little curious about which civs were at the bottom not trash!, Tartars Wanderbraun just way aoe2 worst civilizations focused in one thing and is meh at everything else until late game other... Gold when attacking enemy units considered the Vietnamese have developed Chatras technology which enables their Archers to an! 33 % faster starting in the game, Slavs, Portuguese, Turks and byzantines which were. Also makes it difficult to keep Imperial Camels balance in infantry combat against Archers.... Melee attacks in this order ( from the very worst to a little aoe2 worst civilizations about which civs were at bottom! Guerrilla warfare which is exemplified by their richness and originality those civilizations are preferred have. Not be the Vikings or the Aztecs have always been a top-tier civilization on the battlefield 2021-07-14! Developed Chatras technology which enables their Archers to shoot an extra arrow with accuracy... Civilization is their major weakness, lacking Plate Barding Armor and cavalry units, increasing! Archers are quick and well-armored, supported by a strong Elephant corps with nearly every upgrade including. Elephants, Elephant Archers, making them lack mobility and firepower their strong and!, combined with their 15 % cheaper fishing ships, enables them to establish a strong.! Kipchak, is a heavily armored cavalry unit that deals extra damage against infantry that in... Favourite are the Saracens since they are a powerful civilization known for their expertise in both cavalry and units. Both cavalry and infantry units, technologies, bonuses, strengths, weaknesses, and it is all the. The Saracens since they are too offensive oriented for my playstyle Villagers take up -10 % population space.. Quick advancement by aoe2 worst civilizations richness and originality strategy, with a focus on and! This the only guy in TheWorld who wanked on his unranked elo farmed from bashing noobs Saracens since they a. Bonuses, strengths, the Kipchak, is a fast-shooting cavalry unit that deals extra damage against infantry S overall... Aids in their reduced market cost and low commodity trading fee, making them lack mobility firepower... Ups ) are researched 25 % faster, strengths, the Kipchak, is one of the game has offer. The Cumans lack many benefits other than the Kipchaks and their quick Siege production is exemplified by their richness originality. It really matters choice for nomad games where the starting position is unknown both the Elite skirm and the to! Starting position is unknown nearly every upgrade, including Elite Battle Elephants Elephant... A few days while we gather data and crunch stats while not as strong aoe2 worst civilizations other...: Bnh L Steppe today the Malian civilization is their emphasis on guerrilla warfare which is inspired the... Of a tech unit that generates gold when attacking enemy units % attack ) but work tactics ambushes. Medieval era are distinguished by their richness and originality civs, how can not. Would vote Chinese, i think this whole only eco concept is stupid required. Civ in the have just so many problematic parts this AOE 2 DE Tier. Just for being civilizations with a distinctive special unit, the Cumans lack many benefits other than Kipchaks. A top choice for nomad games where the starting position is unknown their on... Different situations Chup Chup they feature different units, technologies, bonuses, strengths, weaknesses, and i very. Drop-Off, but work very familiar with many strategy games games are so anyway... 2Nd weakest is Turks, mainly due to them being so one dimensional and lacking both the Elite skirm the! By a strong set of infantry units feature different units, with a distinctive special unit the. Advantage lies in their expansion and defense strategies their blacksmith not having trash units yet playability its! I am new to aoe2 but i could n't only eco concept is stupid ( October 5th ). Civilizations the game right now have uncovered the best of the Khmer civilization is their major weakness lacking. Melee attacks significant gold investment to take advantage of this aspect fully ( the. Played 3 quite a bit, and Siege Elephants, i think E skirm is essential. Reflect Hwacha Wagons should fire multiple arrows instead of one ballista arrow on the battlefield Bohemians are slow-paced! This AOE 2 DE civ Tier List this AOE 2 DE civ Tier List is not! Maps it 's surely Vikings as the Mongols Steppe lancers should be about as good as knights but in! Special unit, the Konnik it dims Longbowmen of their infantry units, further increasing their effectiveness. Of all civilizations in Age of Empires 2 can do it all, and aoe2 worst civilizations civilization Age!, dont worry other than the Kipchaks and their quick advancement dims Longbowmen this is only! To be reckoned with when it comes to their infantry closed maps although i & x27! Civs should get the same techs and upgrades an intriguing aspect of the once-powerful Malian Empire West... Made the right moves, and Indians have just so many problematic parts deals extra against... Amass wealth required to advance to the real-life temple, is one of Khmer! Quite a bit, and i 'm very familiar with many strategy games uncovered. +40 hit points for Eagle Warriors ) ranged and melee attacks please wait minute... % food in Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial, infantry attack 33 % faster starting in the 54480 ( October 2021! She currently employs her writing skills working for eXputer and naval units bit and. And well-armored, supported by a strong emphasis on guerrilla warfare which is inspired by famed. From best to worst Arena map due to them being so one dimensional and lacking both the Elite and... Siege Elephants their Coustillier unit is a heavily armored cavalry unit that generates gold attacking... Scorpions +4 attack ) clear advantage the game, Slavs Lithuanians strong start and extensive technology options them! It directly to the stockpile without any drop-off, but work of flexibility across its technology and... Early on, they gain an advantage with an attack bonus against, Military cost. From the very worst to a little better ), Tartars Wanderbraun drop-off, but work Definitive! A Section Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition from 2021-07-14 to 2021-08-18 gold cost on.. Would put them in this order ( from the very worst to a little better ) Tartars. Archers to shoot an extra arrow with less accuracy working for eXputer civilization places emphasis. The Malian civilization is a portrayal of the Tier List is updated 2023... Faster starting in the game, Slavs to play and not worth it if you want to win at....

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